Mappa delle fabbriche di orologi in URSS

[zvezda]

Just a detail, regarding the wartime existence and names of Soviet watch factories - I tried here (http://forums.watchuseek.com/f10/wartim ... st23928633) to systematize what I had found and my sources. Of course, one can never be really sure with the Soviet watches, but at this stage it seems pretty clear that in Chistopol was 835, while 853 was in Moscow and functioned on the premises of 2nd State watch factory and produced watches already in 1942.

Hi Storyteller! Thank you for your kind words and welcome to the forum! I know you are a historian, as well as a highly respected member of WUS, but I would really appreciate if you could write a line or two about you in this section.
As to the discussion you've kindly pointed us to, it looks absolutely fascinating. I will take me a bit to read it, but please go on with your considerations here.
If I understand well, you are stating that the 2MWF evacuated to Chistopol in 1941, with all their equipment and personnel, made no watch there, returned to Moscow in 1942 with enough workers and machinery to start watch production again, but by this time decided to drop the 2MWF logo in favour of code "53", which was part of the factory number 853. And all of this in wartime, with very limited resources available. That's enough to make me scratch my head, especially if I put into account what was done by the 1MWF under similar circumstances.
I agree with you, the only certainty is that there is no certainty

[storyteller]

Hi Zvezda, we miss you at WUS

briefly, it seems that the 2nd State Watch Factory was partially - and only partially evacuated to Kazan / Chistopol by the end of 1941, where it is mentioned as 2nd State watch factory in Chistopol (similar to Kirova, which is quoted as 1st State watch factory in Zlatoust). This is mentioned also in the often quoted Slava book.
Then there is an order, quoted here (http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/econo ... rom/ver10/) file 1942 (this is a big file, some 1300 pages, but you could try a search with keywords 853 and 835, or часовой) from early 1942 to start a factory N 853 in Moscow on the premises of 2 State watch factory. Probably by that time Chsitopol received the number 835, but I'm not sure.
Certainly by mid 1942 Kirova was already 845, 2nd State WF in Moscow - 853, and 2nd State watch factory in Chistopol - 835. All of them were functional. Watches (or at least, mortar fuses) were produced both in Chistopol and Moscow. There are several lists of factories under the control of Ministry of Mortar Weapons, where all these factories appear. But when exactly these numbers were assigned, I'm not sure - somewhere in the first half of 1942, between January and July, but when exactly...
The rebuilt 853 in Moscow recieved part of its tools and personel back from Chistopol (others remained in Chistopol), and part of the tools, previously owned by 1st State factory, from Zlatoust. There are a couple of orders in that sense. Initially 853 produced only war equipment, but in 1943 (maybe earlier, but in 1943 for sure) also wristwatches. This is confirmed both by the book, which claims that production of Type 1 was fully restarted in 1943, and by orders in "1942" file ordering Chistopol to return the production line for writstwatches to Moscow.
In 1943, a 5th State watch factory was built in Serdobsk with tools and personel both from 2nd State Watch Factory in Moscow (853) and from Chistopol (835).

Regarding the naming system - apparently, the first option (from 1941) was to keep the original names of the big watch factories in evacuation.
1st State WF from Moscow became 1st State WF in Moscow and 1st SWF in Zlatoust. 2nd SWF was in Moscow and in Chistopol.
Then at some point (early 1942? I don't know) we have 1st SWF in Moscow and 4th SWF in Zlatoust (maybe the Zlatoust branch became autonomous from Moscow and received its own name? who knows).
By the mid 1942 each factory had its own wartime number.
After the war, apparently the mess with the numbers and State watch factories' branches became too complicated, and a new system was adopted with geographical designations - 1st and 2nd Moscow WF, Chistopol WF, etc.

And a final small suggestion - it seems that before the war, ZiM was known as Factory 42.

[zvezda]

The Dexter/Rodionov files are simply astounding! Thank you so much, Ilia!
After browsing the archives, I found the whole dataset available as a guide:

• The Factories, Research and Design Establishment of the Soviet Defence Industry: a Guide
  Version 16
  Keith Dexter and Ivan Rodionov
  The University of Warwick, Department of Economics, January 2015

The dataset is almost 30k records long, so I arranged an excerpt of the few lines on the Soviet watch factories, and put it temporarily here at: https://www.cccp-forum.it/docs/Rodionov/wfsorted.htm.
There is some more work to do, some information still need to be cross-checked with the Slava book, but I think we are getting closer to perfection!

[storyteller]

A word of caution - there are texts from various sources put rather indiscriminately together in this file. Some of them are just copy-pasted from corporate web pages, and I don't trust them too much. Usually they end with OAO - abbreviation for public limited company.
Others end with a small number in brackets - 4 or 5 digits - and these seem to be archival numbers of good, trustworthy documents.


For example this one:
На 1 января 1942 были следующие Паспорта заводов НКМВ: By the 1st of January 1942 there were the following passports of factories, controlled by NKMV (Ministry of Mortar Weapons) (page 5 of 1942 file):
follows a long list of factories, and on page 7, are listed:
4-й Часовой завод № 834
На базе площадей бывшего городского театра и школы № 21 Златоуста (с 1942 года).
Златоуст Челябинской области 1-ый часовой завод им. Кирова
4th Watch factory N 834,
on the premises of the former city theater and school number 21 in Zlatoust (since year 1942),
Zlatoust, Chelyabinsk district, 1st watch factory Kirova
or:
2-й Государственный часовой завод № 835
На базе площадей школы № 1, школы № 2, Пединститута, Водочного завода, библиотеки
Чистополь ТАССР, улица Маркса, 15
2nd State watch factory N 835
on the premises of school N1, school N2, Paedagogical institute, Vodka factory, and library
Chistopol, Tatar Autonomous Soviet Socialist Repuplic, Marx street, 15

Завод № 853
На базе площадей 2-го Государственного часового завода в Москве
Москва п/я 3005
Factory N853,
on the premises of the 2nd State Watch Factory in moscow,
Moscow, post box 3005
etc. etc. and in the end of the list, on page 9, there is an archival number in brackets - 9569

Basically, when i see in this "1942" file spmething which looks like an archival document - a text which deals with only one year or month, and has an archival number - I tend to believe it, while for the rest...