Ma va a GAIGHèR! Raketa Radioattivo Radio Gaigher

[DaniLao]

L'intervento di Tororex m'ha richiamato alla mente qualche eco neurale e, dopo una rapida ricerca, ho recuperato questa discussione del 2010 http://orologiec.forumup.it/viewtopic.p ... =orologiec nella quale si può leggere la risposta data da Raketa a Mchap su vari "counterfeits".

Purtroppo la foto alla quale la risposta fa riferimento (con i numeri) s'è persa in qualche repulisti di imageshack, se Antonio la ritrovasse e la volesse caricare sul server di CCCP-forum non sarebbe male, la si potrebbe mantenere ad imperitura memoria nello spazio a nostra disposizione e gestione semidiretta

Comunque, ecco la risposta chiarificatoria:

"Dear Antonio,

Thank you very much for your support and for noticing us this traffic of fake Raketa watches in Italy.

I will try to give you a short answer, though we could discuss this for hours and write about this problem many pages.

First of all : If you buy some original spare parts from Mercedes and if you integrate them on a Chinese made car, even though a few parts may be original, it does not make the final car an original Mercedes. It is the same with Raketa. Actually many watch brands have the same problem, that counterfeit watches may contain some original parts. Even Rolex has this problem, that some very well imitated Rolex watches may contain original spare parts. In Russia all the Watch repair shops can order original parts from Raketa, so that they can repair watches that clients bring to them for repair. So that it is quiet easy for some repair shops to obtain original details. Though, it was not well controlled in the past, now we have a very strict control of repair shops that buy spare-parts from us.

All these counterfeits shown in your picture are not even sold in Russia, where we also have problems with many counterfeits sold. It seems for the moment that they are only sold in Italy. that makes us believe that they were produced in Italy, or ordered by an Italian inChina.

Now, concerning these ridiculous counterfeits. I will give you just a few indications to show you how ridiculously these watches are counterfeits.

Few examples:

Counterfeit 1 and 2:
Even a 5 year old Russian child would not make such writing mistakes in Russian, These counterfeits are just a joke, It is just funny. The most funny is at 9 o’clock is written 10 with writing mistakes. This dial was probably designed by an illiterate Chinese (maybe Italian) child. How can the Italian forum owner even pretend he is a specialist in Russian watches? He is all but a specialist, he is nothing more than an illegal counterfeit dealer, using his forum notoriety to make money and screw honest Italian Russian watch lovers. We are very sorry for all the Italians who got screwed by him.

Countrfeit 4
Also very funny. At 6 o’clock there is a sign that look similar to the Russian letter “CH” (like “chest”, 6 in Russian), but only similar, it is not a “CH”… but do you know what it really is? It is a Chinese word meaning in Chinese “Mountain”, It seems that the Chinese designer that made this dial, took the most similar sign he had on his computer to a Russian “CH” , that was a Chinese hieroglyph meaning “Mountain”.

Counterfeit 6
If a Russian would have designed this dial in the 70’s or 80’s as your Italian Counterfeit dealer is pretending, then this Russian would probably be in a Siberian prison camp for 20 years. The Soviet Union quality logo that is in the center of the dial, was a quality sign that a very very few items were awarded with. It was very very strictly controlled who could or not put this sign on an item. It was the symbol of quality for the Soviet Industry. And no one was allowed to joke with this quality logo. The watches that got this sign are very few. You may basically consider that a watch with this sign sold on ebay is usually a counterfeit, especially if the watch is new. But most of all if a designer would during soviet times put this government quality control sign so big and in the middle of the dial so that the logo itself is spoiled by the hands and the hole in the center of the dial. Then you may be sure that this designer would loose his job, and most probably send to jail for disrespect to the construction of the Soviet Industry.

I will not even go into details with the other watches displayed on your pictures, they are just cheap counterfeits, we can easily recognize they are fake, 1st we never produced such dials, some of the hands are POLJOT imitated hands, and the Raketa engravings on the back of the watches are just a joke, we never did engravings this way…

So, this seller practise to sell fake watches. I advice you don't trust him.

Thank you very much one more time for you help, please accept our best regards,

Luisa"

EDIT:
Grazie alla segnalazione di Zvezda da qua http://forums.watchuseek.com/f10/raketa-ok-419992.html ho recuperato la foto originale numerata, eccola:

Raketa contraffatti.jpg

[totorex]

Then you may be sure that this designer would loose his job, and most probably send to jail for disrespect to the construction of the Soviet Industry.
cmq devo cercare nelle mie email: dovrei avere ancora il catalogo e ci dovrebbero essere proprio quelli citati nella mail della raketa

[zvezda]

Then you may be sure that this designer would loose his job, and most probably send to jail for disrespect to the construction of the Soviet Industry.

Eh, sì. Ci fu una vera e propria querelle su orologiko.it nel luglio del 2010, che portò a diversi conflitti e stravolgimenti.
In sintesi, tutto cominciò con la vendita di orologi curata dall'allora moderatore della sezione sui russi. Tra gli orologi in vendita c'erano diversi Raketa, alcuni dei quali decisamente fuori dai canoni tradizionali. Alla fine di aprile 2010, partendo da un post innocuo di Vaurien, il forumista italiano Nand-o iniziò a manifestare perplessità verso questi modelli (The Russians in Italy - 20 years after). In queste foto, tratte dal post citato di WUS, i modelli "strani" di cui parlo sono molto facilmente individuabili.

gr01.jpg

gr02.jpg

gr03.jpg

gr04.jpg

Invece di rispondere alle perplessità, e di cercare di chiarire insieme l'origine di quegli strani orologi, l'ex-moderatore mise su un atteggiamento irritato e minaccioso. Quel tono era già noto ad alcuni, per certi suoi interventi diffamatori su altri forum nei confronti di mchap, cuoccimix ed altri.
Stanchi di questo atteggiamento e desiderosi di vederci chiaro, mchap su WUS (Is this Raketa ok?) e Paolo/Brait su orologiko.it cominciarono a raccogliere, analizzare e pubblicare informazioni. L'ex-moderatore andò su tutte le furie, si scoprirono suoi interventi sotto false spoglie, fece passare più di un brutto quarto d'ora al moderatore globale di orologiko (il mio caro e compianto amico Pierino La Peste, alias Piero Perlo) e alla fine fu costretto ad andarsene (sottolineo che non fu cacciato, e che anzi gli fu data più di una opportunità di scusarsi). Di quel periodo ricordo una grande amarezza, ma anche il grande piacere di vedere il caro Mattia (mat939) prendere le redini della sezione russi di orologiko.

mat939.jpg

La bufera passò, e lentamente Anna/Vaurien, Antonio/mchap, Michele e molti altri entrarono a far parte di orologiko per creare quello che fu il più bel periodo di quella sezione. Acqua passata, ma sono contento di averla vissuta in prima persona. Molto in prima persona, direi

anatemi.jpg

[DaniLao]

In vece e per conto di Totorex (il quale ringrazio per la solerte e rapida ricerca nel suo archivio) che ha avuto problemi tecnici di upload ecco il citato "catalogo" (debbo ammettere di non aver ben compreso la faccenda dell'offerta prendi uno ma anche un altro altrimenti non puoi prendere nessuno...) girato all'epoca dei fatti.

EDIT:
Marco, ci siamo sovrapposti.

A questo punto (e dopo il riassunto) comprendo che quello sopra debba essere il (probabilmente tristemente) famoso catalogo di vendita.

Però, a parte gli amarcord, anche tra questi il Raketa radioattivo non c'è... :-/

OROLOGI_IN_VENDITA_1.jpg

OROLOGI_IN_VENDITA_2.jpg

OROLOGI_IN_VENDITA_3.jpg

OROLOGI_IN_VENDITA_4.jpg

OROLOGI_IN_VENDITA_5.jpg

OROLOGI_IN_VENDITA_6.jpg

OROLOGI_IN_VENDITA_7.jpg

OROLOGI_IN_VENDITA_8.jpg

OROLOGI_IN_VENDITA_9.jpg

[zvezda]

EDIT:
Marco, ci siamo sovrapposti.

Direi complementati
Riguardo alla lettera di Raketa, devi sapere che Antonio fu un vero signore e non la pubblicò integralmente.
Ormai è passato tanto tempo, possiamo anche tornarci sopra (io a suo tempo ci sono stato male per un bel po') e leggere insieme come proseguiva. Prima però, è necessario leggere il post che originò la lettera qui: RAKETA, falsi e falsari - I parte. Non ci fu una seconda parte, gli eventi precipitarono rapidamente (senza contare che molti post furono cancellati per via di insulti e minacce francamente sconcertanti.

[zvezda]

Ok, avete letto? Proseguiamo.
Antonio non fu l'unico a chiedere delucidazioni a Raketa. Un altro appassionato fece la stessa cosa in maniera indipendente (ma coordinandosi con Antonio) e mandò una richiesta il 22/7/2010. La risposta arrivò il 27/7, in contemporanea a quella di Antonio. La prima parte come vedrete è identica, ma poi prosegue commentando le affermazioni del post che ho citato in precedenza:

Dear Sir,
Thank you very much for your support and for noticing us this traffic of fake Raketa watches in Italy.
I will try to give you a short answer, though we could discuss this for hours and write about this problem many pages.
First of all : If you buy some original spare parts from Mercedes and if you integrate them on a Chinese made car, even though a few parts may be original, it does not make the final car an original Mercedes. It is the same with Raketa. Actually many watch brands have the same problem, that counterfeit watches may contain some original parts. Even Rolex has this problem, that some very well imitated Rolex watches may contain original spare parts. In Russia all the Watch repair shops can order original parts from Raketa, so that they can repair watches that clients bring to them for repair. So that it is quiet easy for some repair shops to obtain original details. Though, it was not well controlled in the past, now we have a very strict control of repair shops that buy spare-parts from us.
All these counterfeits shown in your picture are not even sold in Russia, where we also have problems with many counterfeits sold. It seems for the moment that they are only sold in Italy. that makes us believe that they were produced in Italy, or ordered by an Italian in China.
Now, concerning these ridiculous counterfeits. I will give you just a few indications to show you how ridiculously these watches are counterfeits.
Few examples:

Counterfeit 1 and 2:
[attachment=2]counterfeits12.jpg[/attachment]
Even a 5 year old Russian child would not make such writing mistakes in Russian, These counterfeits are just a joke, It is just funny. The most funny is at 9 o’clock is written 10 with writing mistakes. This dial was probably designed by an illiterate Chinese (maybe Italian) child. How can your Italian forum owner even pretend he is a specialist in Russian watches? He is all but a specialist, he is nothing more than an illegal counterfeit dealer, using his forum notoriety to make money and screw honest Italian Russian watch lovers. We are very sorry for all the Italians who got screwed by him.


Countrfeit 4
[attachment=1]counterfeits345.jpg[/attachment]
Also very funny. At 6 o’clock there is a sign that look similar to the Russian letter “CH” (like “chest”, 6 in Russian), but only similar, it is not a “CH”… but do you know what it really is? It is a Chinese word meaning in Chinese “Mountain”, It seems that the Chinese designer that made this dial, took the most similar sign he had on his computer to a Russian “CH” , that was a Chinese hieroglyph meaning “Mountain”.


Counterfeit 6
[attachment=0]counterfeits67.jpg[/attachment]
If a Russian would have designed this dial in the 70’s or 80’s as your Italian Counterfeit dealer is pretending, then this Russian would probably be in a Siberian prison camp for 20 years. The Soviet Union quality logo that is in the center of the dial, was a quality sign that a very very few items were awarded with. It was very very strictly controlled who could or not put this sign on an item. It was the symbol of quality for the Soviet Industry. And no one was allowed to joke with this quality logo. The watches that got this sign are very few. You may basically consider that a watch with this sign sold on ebay is usually a counterfeit, especially if the watch is new. But most of all if a designer would during soviet times put this government quality control sign so big and in the middle of the dial so that the logo itself is spoiled by the hands and the hole in the center of the dial. Then you may be sure that this designer would loose his job, and most probably send to jail for disrespect to the construction of the Soviet Industry.
I will not even go into details with the other watches displayed on your pictures, they are just cheap counterfeits, we can easily recognize they are fake, 1st we never produced such dials, some of the hands are POLJOT imitated hands, and the Raketa engravings on the back of the watches are just a joke, we never did engravings this way…

e prosegue commentando il post citato...

I will also answer a few points of what was written on the Italian Forum:

“(Raketa) it’s only a commercial sales company utilizing the Raketa brand”This is totally wrong; we are one of the very few last real Soviet/Russian watch factories, that really produce our movements from A to Z. And you are welcome to visit our factory anytime. We will soon put some films on youtube to show our factory and how we work.
SLAVA Factory does not exist anymore. Though some company sell watches with the brand Slava that were produced somewhere else.
POLJOT they still have only a small workshop with 4 or 5 employees assembling Marine Chronometers (2 or 3 pieces per month). Maybe Poljot will one day restart production because it was bought by a very rich Russian business man that has potentially a lot of money to invest, but this will take many years before they will produce wristwatches again. All the pretended new Poljot wristwatch sold on Internet are fake. Or they are maybe “Aviator” watches (nothing to do with “Poljot”) sold as if they were Poljot. Aviator is a new brand from a watch assembling company “Volmax” that was founded in year 2000. They are not Poljot, and not allowed to sell their watches as if it was POLJOT.
Vostok is still producing, though they have a very difficult financial situation, we really hope they will survive, because as Raketa they are one of the very last REAL soviet/Russian watch factory.
“no trace of the soviet appeal, not even in their archives.”The Petrodvorets Watch Factory - Raketa is Russia’s oldest factory, it was founded by Peter the Great in 1721. And we have probably the richest historical archive of designs in the world watch industry. We also have one of the richest archive in technical drawing of movements in Russia, because most other factories lost all their archives in the process of privatization. We are actually in process of scanning all our design archive (this is a very long work) and maybe one day we will publish a book about them. If one day you come and visit us we can show you this very interesting archives.
“started to get rid of its (hypothetical?) distributors”
- russian-watches
- moscowphoto
- alex1076597
- ruscamera
- smart_domains
- petrovich
- zenitar
- russianornaments
- taras2001
- timepieces_ua
These ebay sellers have never been our distributors of any kind, they are specialised shops in selling counterfeits of Russian watches, and most probably your Italian Counterfeit seller is related to them, since he even tries to support them.
“What is really annoying is the fact that some sellers have been suddenly and only now accused of being peddlers of false”
In soviet time we had not such a problem of counterfeits, or if there was we were not aware of it. Then for many years our factory had other problems than fighting counterfeits, but also we did not have any experience as other western watch brands may have in how to fight counterfeits. Now (and this is new) we have lawyers helping us and we have employees speaking English, German, French (sorry not Italian yet, but maybe soon, I will maybe take some lessons…). Just even a year ago we did not even have one employee speaking English, how could we even fight counterfeits sold on ebay or other sites that are in English and we could not even read what was written.
“What is really interesting for us is the fact that Raketa is denying a past not so really clear and, on the other hand it’s carrying out a reckless, ridiculous and grotesque fake hunting at all costs.
Every item that is not really well known by the mother house experts (really experts? ) it gets unilaterally marked as fake, in such an easy way, with the obvious consequences.

The problem is that this situation has been going on from sometimes, marking as fake everything that this new management doesn’t know, or pretends not to know….
It’s very difficult that very well known dealers could be party to this situation, sellers known for their fairness and direct relationships with mother houses.
To get things worse in this really sad situation is the rejection of part of the production (after the dissolution), as to cancel at once a really embarrassing past.
To get to the bottom, it’s the fact of marking as fakes really original products, with the consequences that people not so expert will believe to Raketa.”
IF I was a counterfeit seller, I would probably write the same lies to try to protect my illegal business. How can this man, selling such ridiculous counterfeits pretend he is more expert than the employees of the factory themselves, knowing that many of them work in the factory for more than 40 – 50 years (some of our workers are 70 years old, and they refuse to retire because the factory is all their life).
We do not speak or read Italian, so that it is very difficult for us to understand what happens in Italy with counterfeit Raketa watches. We are very very thankful for your support, and if you defend our factory on Italian forums. Please stay in touch with us and we hope that you will one day visit our factory in Saint Petersbourg or our Office in Moscow.
Thank you very much one more time for you help, please accept our best regards
Luisa

[cpc]

Il venditore da cui ho preso il Ghaiger aveva anche un esemplare del 5! Carino, ben rifinito, ma non mi ha convinto e non l'ho preso...


Inviato dal mio SM-A300FU utilizzando Tapatalk

[Cane]

(debbo ammettere di non aver ben compreso la faccenda dell'offerta prendi uno ma anche un altro altrimenti non puoi prendere nessuno...) girato all'epoca dei fatti.

All'epoca mi stavo avvicinando ai russi, ero abbastanza ignorante e dal famoso moderatore ne presi due..(2 e 4)



Che nonostante tutto mi piacciono molto...

Il gioco che per prendere il marine e altri piu' richiesti dovevi prenderne un altro meno appetibile era dovuto al fatto che i primi li stava esaurendo mentre dei secondi aveva grande disponibilita'...

C'e' da dire che questi pezzi irregolari erano fatti molto bene, quadrante curato, indici in rilievo, in generale li ritengo superiori ai raketa regolari del periodo...

[finestraweb]

modello ufficiale = riconosciuto dalla casa ed ancor meglio, presente nei suoi cataloghi del tempo
modello non ufficiale = non riconosciuto dalla casa, sicuramente non presente in nessun catalogo omonimo

Nella casistica dei modelli non ufficiali, dovremmo distinguere tra:
a) modelli propriamente franken, assemblati dal privato nella sua cantina con dei pezzi raccattati qua e là oppure "cinesate"
b) modelli assemblati da gruppi organizzati, su scala "industriale", il più delle volte utilizzando molti componenti terzi "ufficiali"
Allora, questi ultimi possono essere anche molto ben curati, pur restando dei figli "di padre ignoto".
Modelli così, secondo me, sono molti, ma ai tempi, c'era meno informazione .
Basti pensare alle miriadi di modelli presenti nei libri di Jury.

[cpc]

modello ufficiale = riconosciuto dalla casa ed ancor meglio, presente nei suoi cataloghi del tempo
modello non ufficiale = non riconosciuto dalla casa, sicuramente non presente in nessun catalogo omonimo

Nella casistica dei modelli non ufficiali, dovremmo distinguere tra:
a) modelli propriamente franken, assemblati dal privato nella sua cantina con dei pezzi raccattati qua e là oppure "cinesate"
b) modelli assemblati da gruppi organizzati, su scala "industriale", il più delle volte utilizzando molti componenti terzi "ufficiali"
Allora, questi ultimi possono essere anche molto ben curati, pur restando dei figli "di padre ignoto".
Modelli così, secondo me, sono molti, ma ai tempi, c'era meno informazione .
Basti pensare alle miriadi di modelli presenti nei libri di Jury.

...e restano validi testimoni del periodo storico che li ha generati!